Interview with ulysses Dietz, Chief Curator AT THE nEWARK mUSEUM
DandyCraft: Tell us a little about yourself. You’ve been active as a curator, at the Newark Museum for over thirty years. How did it begin? What propelled you in those directions? Who were your influences/mentors?
Ulysses Dietz: I came to Newark directly from the Winterthur Museum’s MA Program in American Material Culture (then, in 1980, called Early American Culture). I got to Winterthur through Yale, where Charles Montgomery (and his wife, Florence) presided over the American decorative arts collection at the Yale University Art Gallery. There were a lot of graduate students at Yale, working with Mr. Montgomery (CFM as we called him) who ended up going out into museums all over the USA. Everybody in the American art office mentored me. What got me into American art and decorative arts at Yale was a summer volunteer position at Lorenzo, a NY State historic site in Cazenovia…my parents’ place looked down the lake at this house, and I just stopped by one morning the summer after my freshman year to see if they needed help. That’s the summer I realized that this was a career I really wanted to have.
DandyCraft: Newark has a rich manufacturing tradition that is well reflected throughout the museum’s collection. Have you seen that being replaced or enhanced by a new culture of contemporary craft artisans?
Ulysses Dietz: The museum collected what we would call craft as early as 1910—but we also collected the products of industry…factory made objects of good design. Specifically, NJ craft and design has always been a subset of our overall goal to collect craft –the art of everyday life—from all over the world, and that dates to our founding year of 1909. But to be honest, we collected “craft” from Asia, Africa and by Native American artists all before the first World War.
There has been a tradition of contemporary craft in NJ since after WWII, when Newark did its exhibition in 1948, “The Decorative Arts Today.” We bought craft from that show, and when I discovered that early in my career, I realized I needed to carry on that tradition. So I used my Winterthur-trained understanding of the cultural meaning of objects to study contemporary objects made by hand. My collecting of contemporary objects from 1980 on was simply continuing a tradition that was already 70 years old in 1980 in Newark. The 1980s were a Golden Age of American craft, and I’m glad I was there to participate in it.
DandyCraft: Craft as a transdisciplinary field provides numerous avenues of participation for makers to share their stories, works and skilled processes while forming a diverse community. Do you find the same diversity exists within the institutions (i.e. museums, schools, galleries, craft shows) responsible for shaping the public consciousness around craft?
Ulysses Dietz: Honestly, I think “yes,” but I qualify it by adding that museums are the LEAST of the diversity that has made the contemporary craft world such a compelling and gratifying place for me. There have been museums interested in craft since the 1940s, but not very many and few of them have been really committed. Schools, galleries, craft shows and the artists themselves have been the chief source of the rich diversity and interchange within the craft world. Museums trail along…and the more powerful the museum, the farther they’ve trailed behind. Newark has always been part of this, but always limited in space and money; The American Craft Museum (now MAD) has been the pillar of this movement…and of course there are others. But big places like the MFA Boston and the Met only came around when smaller museums had already led the way and made craft valid. Houston, which now has a fabulous craft program and a fabulous curator, didn’t give a crap about craft for most of its history. I’m glad it’s changed, and am jealous of what they can do now, but they were very late to the banquet.
DandyCraft: Craft has been on the vanguard of interpreting and confronting issues of disenfranchisement based on race, gender, sexual orientation, and other marginalized identities. As these topics become increasingly politicized in our current election cycle, what have you seen in response from the craft world? How can craft be utilized to create a dialogue around these issues? Have any institutions tried?
Ulysses Dietz: This is hard, because I can say I know the craft world has responded to a lot of this—but the historical dominance of straight, white folks in the craft world is a fact that is hard to deny. There is still a dearth of craft that is promoted as dealing with race or LGBTQ issues—but surely more than there was 30 years ago. In the 1980s, Phillip Maberry was one of the few really out gay ceramic artists. Toots Zynsky was one of the few high-profile women in the very misogynistic world of studio glass. I’m exaggerating, but this is the essence of what I experienced. The Native American craft world was ghettoized (and still largely is) into Indian Market in Santa Fe as if they were not really part of the overall American craft world.
The millennial generation of craft-makers is more inclusive in every way than the gen-xers or my own boomer generation. But most of them are still too young to have made much headway in the museum world…except in places that really focus on craft…and now there are a few more of them.
DandyCraft: As a newcomer to the field of craft, I’ve been impressed with many of the powerful stories from makers who utilize their work as an extension of their LGBTQ identity and means of processing life-altering events. Who are some of the makers whose stories have impacted you and why were you drawn to them?
Tony Whitfield (furniture); Phillip Maberry (ceramics); Steve Ford (of Ford/Forlano, jewelry); these guys are MY generation. Karen Karnes (ceramics, and she never talked about it)…was my parents’ generation. I’ve met a few gay craftspeople in my career, but in my generation, it’s still very straight, even if I have always felt welcomed. I can only think of one contemporary Native artist who deals with gender issues, and he’s not remotely out to his people, and thus I can’t even name him. I’m afraid I’m actually at a disadvantage because I don’t know YOUR generation in the craft world and that’s where the LGBTQ movement is happening. I’ve met Nathan Vincent, who’s done some very powerful stuff with knitting/crocheting. Maybe I’m just drawing a blank, but I’m sort of ashamed that I don’t have a deeper knowledge of young gay craft artists/makers.
DandyCraft: You frequently travel to craft fairs around the country. How do you see the model of the traditional craft show changing? Is it sustainable? If not, what would replace it?
Ulysses Dietz: On the surface it all looks the same…I jury more crafts shows than I actually visit—but to me the real shift comes from the split between the “craft is art” world and the “craft is stuff you buy for your home” world. The death of SOFA Chicago’s New York and Santa Fe outposts was an early indicator that there was a shift under way. Online shopping has clearly made the craft show (like the antiques show) more vulnerable. Long term, I suspect that the great shows…like Philadelphia Museum of Art’s Contemporary Craft Show and the American Craft Council Show…will survive and probably reinvent themselves. The real problem is that (like the antiques market) the collector base is aging and there isn’t quite the same new generation of collectors replacing them. The whole craft world (see it through the trials of MAD in NYC) is undergoing a generational shift. Personally, I see the “yearning to be art” syndrome in the craft world as a very damaging thing, because it has created an expectation of prices very high and has also made craft skills seem tedious and a waste of time to younger makers. De-skilling is possibly the most appalling term I’ve learned in the past few years.
And the truth is I don’t really travel to pursue acquisitions much…of course I see things when I travel, but more often things find their way to me. Miracle of the internet and email.
DandyCraft: How do you see the direction of craft and the decorative arts changing? Will connoisseurship continue to hold its indomitable sway? What are the requisite skills for a curator going into this field?
Ulysses Dietz: Oh boy, you grad students! I’m not sure I can see the future. Decorative arts were golden in the 1980s and 90s; now they’re in a slump that I never imagined I’d see—and this is entirely blamed on your generation and the gen-xers for having no interest in history or any understanding of the value of anything old. Contemporary craft is more of a puzzle, because it is modern and new and thus SHOULD resonate with younger folks—but it seems to be suffering (at the upper end, anyway) from the same loss of a market of younger collectors. So apparently, people under 40 don’t care about craftsmanship unless its high-tech or high fashion. You tell me. (Seriously, I want to know what in your experience as a millennial, gay curator-to-be encourages you about dec arts and crafts going forward!!!)
I’m not really a doomsayer—we’re in a downward swing, and everything reverses eventually—studying the decorative arts has proven that for sure.
DandyCraft: What I find most inspiring about decorative arts and craft is the potential it has for social dialogue within the museum space. Craft especially resonates with so many questions and issues of race, gender, and political identity that are permeating today's media. If museums can find a way to act as facilitators for dialogue, I think there's a real opportunity for the personal growth of the visitors beyond the passive act of looking, to interrogate themselves and their own assumptions in relation to the objects on display. That, to me, is exciting!
Ulysses Dietz: I came to Newark directly from the Winterthur Museum’s MA Program in American Material Culture (then, in 1980, called Early American Culture). I got to Winterthur through Yale, where Charles Montgomery (and his wife, Florence) presided over the American decorative arts collection at the Yale University Art Gallery. There were a lot of graduate students at Yale, working with Mr. Montgomery (CFM as we called him) who ended up going out into museums all over the USA. Everybody in the American art office mentored me. What got me into American art and decorative arts at Yale was a summer volunteer position at Lorenzo, a NY State historic site in Cazenovia…my parents’ place looked down the lake at this house, and I just stopped by one morning the summer after my freshman year to see if they needed help. That’s the summer I realized that this was a career I really wanted to have.
DandyCraft: Newark has a rich manufacturing tradition that is well reflected throughout the museum’s collection. Have you seen that being replaced or enhanced by a new culture of contemporary craft artisans?
Ulysses Dietz: The museum collected what we would call craft as early as 1910—but we also collected the products of industry…factory made objects of good design. Specifically, NJ craft and design has always been a subset of our overall goal to collect craft –the art of everyday life—from all over the world, and that dates to our founding year of 1909. But to be honest, we collected “craft” from Asia, Africa and by Native American artists all before the first World War.
There has been a tradition of contemporary craft in NJ since after WWII, when Newark did its exhibition in 1948, “The Decorative Arts Today.” We bought craft from that show, and when I discovered that early in my career, I realized I needed to carry on that tradition. So I used my Winterthur-trained understanding of the cultural meaning of objects to study contemporary objects made by hand. My collecting of contemporary objects from 1980 on was simply continuing a tradition that was already 70 years old in 1980 in Newark. The 1980s were a Golden Age of American craft, and I’m glad I was there to participate in it.
DandyCraft: Craft as a transdisciplinary field provides numerous avenues of participation for makers to share their stories, works and skilled processes while forming a diverse community. Do you find the same diversity exists within the institutions (i.e. museums, schools, galleries, craft shows) responsible for shaping the public consciousness around craft?
Ulysses Dietz: Honestly, I think “yes,” but I qualify it by adding that museums are the LEAST of the diversity that has made the contemporary craft world such a compelling and gratifying place for me. There have been museums interested in craft since the 1940s, but not very many and few of them have been really committed. Schools, galleries, craft shows and the artists themselves have been the chief source of the rich diversity and interchange within the craft world. Museums trail along…and the more powerful the museum, the farther they’ve trailed behind. Newark has always been part of this, but always limited in space and money; The American Craft Museum (now MAD) has been the pillar of this movement…and of course there are others. But big places like the MFA Boston and the Met only came around when smaller museums had already led the way and made craft valid. Houston, which now has a fabulous craft program and a fabulous curator, didn’t give a crap about craft for most of its history. I’m glad it’s changed, and am jealous of what they can do now, but they were very late to the banquet.
DandyCraft: Craft has been on the vanguard of interpreting and confronting issues of disenfranchisement based on race, gender, sexual orientation, and other marginalized identities. As these topics become increasingly politicized in our current election cycle, what have you seen in response from the craft world? How can craft be utilized to create a dialogue around these issues? Have any institutions tried?
Ulysses Dietz: This is hard, because I can say I know the craft world has responded to a lot of this—but the historical dominance of straight, white folks in the craft world is a fact that is hard to deny. There is still a dearth of craft that is promoted as dealing with race or LGBTQ issues—but surely more than there was 30 years ago. In the 1980s, Phillip Maberry was one of the few really out gay ceramic artists. Toots Zynsky was one of the few high-profile women in the very misogynistic world of studio glass. I’m exaggerating, but this is the essence of what I experienced. The Native American craft world was ghettoized (and still largely is) into Indian Market in Santa Fe as if they were not really part of the overall American craft world.
The millennial generation of craft-makers is more inclusive in every way than the gen-xers or my own boomer generation. But most of them are still too young to have made much headway in the museum world…except in places that really focus on craft…and now there are a few more of them.
DandyCraft: As a newcomer to the field of craft, I’ve been impressed with many of the powerful stories from makers who utilize their work as an extension of their LGBTQ identity and means of processing life-altering events. Who are some of the makers whose stories have impacted you and why were you drawn to them?
Tony Whitfield (furniture); Phillip Maberry (ceramics); Steve Ford (of Ford/Forlano, jewelry); these guys are MY generation. Karen Karnes (ceramics, and she never talked about it)…was my parents’ generation. I’ve met a few gay craftspeople in my career, but in my generation, it’s still very straight, even if I have always felt welcomed. I can only think of one contemporary Native artist who deals with gender issues, and he’s not remotely out to his people, and thus I can’t even name him. I’m afraid I’m actually at a disadvantage because I don’t know YOUR generation in the craft world and that’s where the LGBTQ movement is happening. I’ve met Nathan Vincent, who’s done some very powerful stuff with knitting/crocheting. Maybe I’m just drawing a blank, but I’m sort of ashamed that I don’t have a deeper knowledge of young gay craft artists/makers.
DandyCraft: You frequently travel to craft fairs around the country. How do you see the model of the traditional craft show changing? Is it sustainable? If not, what would replace it?
Ulysses Dietz: On the surface it all looks the same…I jury more crafts shows than I actually visit—but to me the real shift comes from the split between the “craft is art” world and the “craft is stuff you buy for your home” world. The death of SOFA Chicago’s New York and Santa Fe outposts was an early indicator that there was a shift under way. Online shopping has clearly made the craft show (like the antiques show) more vulnerable. Long term, I suspect that the great shows…like Philadelphia Museum of Art’s Contemporary Craft Show and the American Craft Council Show…will survive and probably reinvent themselves. The real problem is that (like the antiques market) the collector base is aging and there isn’t quite the same new generation of collectors replacing them. The whole craft world (see it through the trials of MAD in NYC) is undergoing a generational shift. Personally, I see the “yearning to be art” syndrome in the craft world as a very damaging thing, because it has created an expectation of prices very high and has also made craft skills seem tedious and a waste of time to younger makers. De-skilling is possibly the most appalling term I’ve learned in the past few years.
And the truth is I don’t really travel to pursue acquisitions much…of course I see things when I travel, but more often things find their way to me. Miracle of the internet and email.
DandyCraft: How do you see the direction of craft and the decorative arts changing? Will connoisseurship continue to hold its indomitable sway? What are the requisite skills for a curator going into this field?
Ulysses Dietz: Oh boy, you grad students! I’m not sure I can see the future. Decorative arts were golden in the 1980s and 90s; now they’re in a slump that I never imagined I’d see—and this is entirely blamed on your generation and the gen-xers for having no interest in history or any understanding of the value of anything old. Contemporary craft is more of a puzzle, because it is modern and new and thus SHOULD resonate with younger folks—but it seems to be suffering (at the upper end, anyway) from the same loss of a market of younger collectors. So apparently, people under 40 don’t care about craftsmanship unless its high-tech or high fashion. You tell me. (Seriously, I want to know what in your experience as a millennial, gay curator-to-be encourages you about dec arts and crafts going forward!!!)
I’m not really a doomsayer—we’re in a downward swing, and everything reverses eventually—studying the decorative arts has proven that for sure.
DandyCraft: What I find most inspiring about decorative arts and craft is the potential it has for social dialogue within the museum space. Craft especially resonates with so many questions and issues of race, gender, and political identity that are permeating today's media. If museums can find a way to act as facilitators for dialogue, I think there's a real opportunity for the personal growth of the visitors beyond the passive act of looking, to interrogate themselves and their own assumptions in relation to the objects on display. That, to me, is exciting!